Introduction  

You need to make a decision but don’t want to make a mistake. For decades, Dr. Constance Dierickx has helped leaders make wise decisions. Now, she’s sharing how to see what others don’t and make great decisions when it matters most. So come on in and have a seat. It’s time for your appointment with The Decision Doctor.

Constance Dierickx

My guest on this episode of the Decision, Doctor, is Morag. Barrett Morag embodies the ability to merge knowledge and experience in an uncommonly valuable way. And does so with easy, good humor that invites others into her thinking. Migrating from a bank manager to a career focused on leadership development. Morag never loses the ability to reach back to what she’s learned. Without dimming her drive to keep. We share an abiding belief in the power of connection person to person. Vision to pragmatism. Analytics and synthesis. Book you, me, we why we all need a friend at work and how to show up as one introduces us to the ally mindset and explains why being a friend at work. Isn’t just a nice to have, but a vital component of what makes the hours we devote to work actually work. Hi Morag, I am so excited to see you today. 

Morag Barrett

I’ve been looking forward to this is my highlight for the day. 

Constance Dierickx

Oh, that is so. Well, I hope you have better weather than we. It’s raining cats and dogs here and this is going to cheer up my day considerably, so I’m excited for my audience to. Hear this? We’re going to trounce all over a lot of terrain about decisions and how you’ve made some decisions and how some of your clients wrestle with difficult decisions. So I want to start by having you. Talk a little bit about how you wound your way to where you are in, like many of us, it was not a straight path, but you took a. You made a pivot that I think is really interesting. I’d like to hear more about which was in the late 90s. Moving from being a finance person, a quote numbers person. To to focusing on leadership, development and finance. And that really launched you in a whole different direction. Tell us about that. 

Morag Barrett

Well, I think it’s funny. Firstly, as you describe it as the late 90s, which is accurate. I suddenly think, wow, that feels like a long time ago. And then I realized in my math brain, my career is now more than 30 years old. My company’s sky team will be 18 next year. Old enough to drink in Europe, which is where I’m from, if not in the US where I live now, and so pivots and those decision points when I pause long enough to look back have happened all along the way. And as a child, I wanted to be a long distance truck driver because I thought I was going to see the world and then in high school I was going to be an engineer. And studied applied mathematics, physics and economics in preparation for that. But in economics, there was a chapter on how banks create money, and I thought, oh, this is fascinating. I’m going to go into finance. You know what? I decided at that point I was not going to go to university. I’d go straight into work so that four years later I would have work experience and do my degree at night school, which is what I did Tuesdays and Thursdays at the Colchester Institute. Oh my gosh. And be ahead of the curve. And so finance, I revelled in the numbers. Love the The there’s poetry in numbers. Know this from your own. You know, there’s a there is essentially a right answer and so spent hours with cash flow forecasts and balance sheets and business plans and. Deciding whether or not to lend millions of pounds to different companies, all stages of their life cycle. And came to realise that the successful ones, those that could afford to pay the bank back and continue to grow and thrive, didn’t just have a good idea, widget or service. Also paid as much care and attention to how business gets done. The people side, which is why I made the choice then to pivot from the traditional career path. I was a bank manager when it was still a pillar of the community. I was in the regional offices et cetera, but I chose to pivot into leadership and executive development within the bank. And so that gets us to the mid 9 or late 90s at that point. And really the trajectory that ended up bringing me here to Colorado and the. Us. 

Constance Dierickx

Something that you I think currently benefit from and I and your clients benefit from as well is. That when you merge an understanding of the business that you’re in the numbers margin. Important things like are we making any money or are we just doing more and losing money and and somehow mistaking that for growth that that is just a a precious combination? That that you are able to bring and. I I see. A number of consultants who struggle in their businesses like you and I, we run a consulting firm and you know, we’re not running Procter and Gamble, we’re running. These smaller companies which gives us a lot of freedom and there’s a lot of opportunity. But I see people who just don’t know their own numbers. Makes me want to bang my head on the wall. They don’t test something against, you know, here’s a great, here’s a shiny new object I’m going to do XY and ZI. Almost said zed. In your honor. 

Morag Barrett

Thank you. 

Constance Dierickx

Welcome. And it just strikes me that it’s an unconscious decision that people make not to focus on the whole of their business. You see, people do that in bigger companies.

Morag Barrett

Yes, I mean, I’m coaching the CFO of a global organization right now. And she is the Unicorn. I mean, obviously she knows numbers but is also high emotional intelligence, good at the people side too, and connecting the dots. And unfortunately, far too often, even those who are not in the finance team in the organization, I see the opposite. And sometimes it goes back to a throwaway comment at high school that, oh, I was never very good at math. Or that miss misunderstanding or myth that, well, fine numbers? Finance owns the numbers, but no, as a business leader, even as somewhere as complex as Procter and GAM. For the part of the organization you’re in, you need to understand how does your organization make money or lose money. Doesn’t really. How does it contribute to the the health of the organization as a whole? Because without that, how do you know which levers to pull? And you still need to focus on the people bit because it’s the people who ultimately are delivering the widget service product that enables the numbers to be met in the cash flow forecast etcetera. So understanding it, even at a basic level. You’ve got to lean into it, and if you think you suck at math, get over it and start learning. It is make or break to the business and it’s make or break to your career. 

Constance Dierickx

Yeah, I happen to be the finance trustee of a not-for-profit organization. And I’ve said more than once, “This is not my data. I am reporting what has happened and what we think will happen” but it’s interesting how sometimes, and you alluded to this, that the CFO, or the in my case finance trustee of a much smaller organization, it’s like somehow you’re responsible for why the numbers are as they are. And so I’m finding it actually kind of a fun challenge. To present financial data. Yeah, with the narrative accompanying it so that it’s much more understandable and you know, that seems so. I’ve seen really great CFOs do that for 25 years, but now I have to do it and I find it’s interesting that people are well, I’m not good at math or. Oh, no, I can’t do that bit. But you really, even if you’re leading a small team, you’re much more effective if you can do both. 

So your journey, you know from number being numbers oriented and wanting to be an engineer to looking at the people side I think is so great because it lets you see things much more holistically. 

Morag Barrett

Yeah, yeah. I mean that as I listen to you there talking about the not-for-profit world and I’m coaching a couple of executive directors in two different organisations. And again, myths and legends emerge around. 

Constance Dierickx

Yeah. 

Morag Barrett

The organization not-for-profit and the number of times I’ve had to remind leaders in that space that not-for-profit, you’re also not for loss. And so you still need to understand the numbers. And to your point, my career journey, my nosiness, my curiosity to understand how things work means that I do connect dots, sometimes in unusual ways. I want to understand how does your business work. Does your team contribute? Does your leadership? Contribute to your team and to your business, because that’s when we can get down to the nitty gritty of where do you need to turn the dial up or the turn the dial. Down in order to unlock the potential and the power of the people working with and for you. 

Constance Dierickx

Yeah, I love that you mentioned the myths in not-for-profit. Asked me the other day who’s very. He’s very involved with not for profits and he knows that I work with boards and corporate boards and he said are the problems in the corporate boardroom really all? Different and I sat back for a minute and I thought, and I said no, they’re not. The language is different. The belief systems are different. But you still have a room full of human beings. Who are we know are imperfect trying to do something good, but they get trapped by the corporate myth. The corporate myths are things like, you know, we don’t do that or we do it this way. But that I think what’s what I love about talking to you is I feel like we’re both. Both sort of amateur anthropologists. Yeah, we like to dig and sift and discover. And I wonder if you see that as a characteristic of good leaders, that they are curious enough to make some effort to make inquiries. And sort of wonder about and notice things. 

Morag Barrett

Immediately what pops into my mind and the answer is yes, but immediately what popped into my mind as a scene from Ted last. Hello show I need to re-watch it but it’s the one where he’s in the pub. They’re often in the pub and about to play a game of darts. With the you know, the toxic leader and the whole punch line. 

Constance Dierickx 

Oh yes. 

Morag Barrett

That Ted lasso. Had you spent a moment just asking one more question about do I know darts? Did I play darts? Yes. Dad, every weekend as he throws the triple bullseye and therefore wipes the floor with him. I think many leaders in their rush to get to the decision or get to action. Forget to pause both to make sure to have I considered. We solving the right. Because I know to my own cost, I’ve done that. I jump to 01/01 ideas or this is what we should do, but I haven’t actually heard the true problem or the underlying causes. And nor do they pause long enough to then focus on the how and The Who, which is. I know, I know what the right answer is, or what we need to do, but have I checked that others are bought in and also understand their part? So am I. To go charging off on my own. Or do I actually have my team with me and alongside me? 

Morag Barrett

Yeah. 

Constance Dierickx

And she I you make another great point in there, which is sometimes leaders fail to use the power of observation. So you know, they’re looking at reports and they’re looking at spreadsheets and all sorts of things, and they’re pulling levers. And none of that is wrong or bad. Then they don’t necessarily get out and. You know, get in the pub. Observe the dart. The dart game that’s about to be played. A few questions. That’s a really classic scene. So one of the CEOs that I work with. What? He’s been in the role, not a, not a long time. And early on he did. What is common for a lot of leaders that are new in a big role is he visited a lot of different locations. What I particularly love about what he did is he hung around. He didn’t just go and have a ceremonial tour. You know, through this facility in that facility, he hung around and he watched. And what he does, he discovered 2. One thing is he discovered that it just a basic system in their logistics was quite suboptimal. But he also learned that one of the people traveling with him. Was an. Wasn’t is an outstanding talent and he didn’t realize it until they were in this novel situation and he jus was an observer. He didn’t point out the sub optimal logistic thing. Someone else did. And it was so it was so. I like to call this wondering, wandering and thinking that as a leader, you got to get out and wonder and wonder and think and you know, find your unicorns and Dragons and you know superstars. In your organization. 

Morag Barrett

Yeah. I mean, I think we all fall. We were all creatures of habit. I mean, we think about. You go to your office, you sit at your desk, whether that’s at home or that’s in a building somewhere. And we don’t stray from it. Or I remember in my corporate career you’d go down to the corporate cafeteria, you’d come out with a tray of food and you think you look around at all the cool kids and you think, well, I don’t know any of them. So. Am I going to do? And you scuttle back to your desk and eat on your own, and we forget that. We’re all playing for the same team. Whatever brand that is or company you are one of the cool kids have the courage. Not junior high to go over to one of those tables and say hi, my name’s Morag. Either new here or I’m the CFO, or I do this. What’s your role here? And then just being curious and making those connections and getting out of our office the usual seat, the same seat at the table, all of this can shift our perspective. In ways that unlock new understanding and new ideas. 

Constance Dierickx

Yeah, absolutely. And that also has what you’re suggesting has the lovely side effect of. Initiating and strengthening relationships which you write about beautifully in this book, I’m going to hold it up. Although this is audio only. It’s your book. You, me, we. Why we all need a friend at work and I think the most important of your title “and how to show up as one”, and it’s about allyship. You wrote it with your colleagues. Spencer and Ruby. 

Constance Dierickx

So I’m very interested to know what. Did you decide to write this book? 

Morag Barrett

So this is the sister book to cultivate the power of winning relationships, which in fact the second edition is going to be out in the next few months and… 

Constance Dierickx

Oh, I’ve heard. Yay. Congratulations. 

Morag Barrett

Thank you. And the book is all about as you the title says, how to be a friend at work and how to show up as one why we need it. And Gartner have been asking as part of their engagement surveys for more than 20 years. Their Gallup 12. Question 10 is do I have a best friend at work? And you can go and Google. You can find out about all the pushback and challenges they’ve had to for that question, but their research shows very clearly that when employees say they agree or strongly agree, engagement is higher. Business results are higher, everything is better. By having a best friend at work, however. Yeah. I had a challenge with that because do I have a best friend at work? Allows me to sit back and be passive to go there and go well. No, I don’t because Constance got the promotion. Should have had. You know Constance gets all the best projects. I don’t. No, I don’t have a best friend at work and so that’s why the title of the book. Is not just do I have one? But how to show up as one? Because you have to be a friend in order to have a friend, but there’s another. Because that doesn’t mean that I turn into a yes person that just is there at the beck and call of Constance of you at the subjugation of my own needs. Also need to learn and understand how to be a best friend to myself. IE, to articulate my hopes, dreams, goals, my boundaries so that you and I hence the title. You, me. How can we be Better Together? So it is a powerful resource for thinking about. Essentially how are you showing up at work? Do others feel in your? How do you feel in your own presence and then making an intentional choice about where to turn the dial up or down? To be that, go to colleague versus the go from colleague that unfortunately many of us have worked with at different times in our career. 

Constance Dierickx

Oh, the person to whom you should give a wide swath. 

Morag Barrett 

Yes, and sometimes they are. Genius geniuses. You know ’cause I. I’ve yet to meet anybody who truly gets up in the morning going “I want to be seen as a jerk or an adversary today.” But by way of their style and their interpersonal skills, that’s the very reputation that they create, right? There’s a few, the narcissists and whatever, but most of us are just trying to do a good job, to feel like our opinion matters and that we belong. And if we can get past that and find a way where you, me, we can be better together. Then work is going to be so much more fun and think about what we could achieve together. The hurdles we could overcome when I don’t have to worry about looking good, being perfect, just how are we going to roll up our sleeves and solve this together? 

Constance Dierickx

Yeah. And you know, I find this in organizations where there’s someone who is genius at delivering results. But are not great at building allyships, building relationships, building followership. And they’re hard on themselves often as well, and that’s often an excuse. It’s like, yeah, but I’m harder on myself. I’m more critical. I find that leaders faced with a decision about such a person, not that I have any recent examples. That they struggle. To make the decision. To remove, demote, or otherwise deal with someone who’s putting a lot of points on the board but whose someone people want to avoid, give a wide swath to and someone. Who’s extremely critical of their team so not developing the next layer of leaders etcetera, etcetera. And I I said this very recently to a CEO. No one I’ve ever worked with in my 26 years has ever said I really wish I had waited long. To act on that problem of this person. 

Morag Barrett 

Yeah. 

Constance Dierickx 

And I repeat that, unfortunately, I have to say that to leaders more often than I wish. But what? Tell me your thoughts about what gets in the way of people being able to make a decision to remove somebody who’s really. I don’t. If I would go so far as to say toxic, but certainly destructive. 

Morag Barrett

Well, so there’s so many layers. I’m not going to go with Shrek, you know? And the onions. Some layers in that one because they’re. Yeah, very wise philosopher. 

Constance Dierickx

Yeah, the philosopher. 

Morag Barrett

There are a number of different thoughts that come to mind for that. I think there are systematic issues. That even create that dynamic that you describe, because the systems that we have in many corporate organizations are designed to, to celebrate and reward the hero or the heroine. Here to save the day. 

Constance Dierickx

Yes, exactly. 

Morag Barrett 

And it’s the individual work versus the. And then we wonder why we get silos and why we get the finger pointing and blame. It’s all about I want to look good. I get that next promotion. And worst case, it creates. So it’s not just firefighting, because that gets rewarded. It means there’s less time for the strategic thinking, the fire prevention and in worst case you get arson, which is I’m going to create the crisis in order to be the hero or heroine to save the day because I. Brownie points. So that’s one channel in response to what you’re saying that needs to be looked at. The second one you said the CEO and I’m actually working with a CEO and an executive team right now as part of our team coaching program. And their message to the team was as we set our vision for the next six months to a year for what we. To look and feel like to be on this team. It isn’t rocket. It’s a choice you’re either going to choose to work collaboratively, respectfully. Doesn’t mean we can’t. Still disagree doesn’t still mean we can’t go toe to toe and have a knock down drag out. About what we’re going to do. However, when we leave that conversation, the understanding is deepened and the relationship is strengthened and more importantly, we’re not. ING, ********, moaning, and whining to others outside of the room. You won’t believe what Morag just said or did. We’re doing it here in private so that we can be Better Together to the rest of the organization so. Getting clear expectations, which means that when you have somebody who is knocking it out of the ballpark but also requiring a clean up on aisle 13 because they’re damaging relationships along the way. Yes, there may be a decision about removing that person, but to be honest, I’d shine a spotlight on why didn’t we have the feedback conversation. Six months ago, a year ago, five years ago, when this first started to emerge, before it became, oh, well, that’s just John being John. That’s just Rebecca being Rebecca and we’re tolerating and excusing the bad behaviour. Yeah, that’s relationships. 

Constance Dierickx

Yeah, that that’s a systemic issue that I see often in organizations and what it leads to is. When a person who needs to be removed is finally removed, people react and they say, oh, you know, thank goodness. Then they start questioning the leader above that person. What’s wrong with them? Why did they tolerate this, you know? Why didn’t they know? And I would. I would go further to say that that when you keep someone in a role where it’s not working for some reason. That you’re actually entrapping them as well. You know, they’re not growing. They’re not learning to do the things that are less natural for them to do as a leader, and so you’re holding them that they’re stuck as well. Then if you lower the boom. All of a sudden. It that has a funny way of not feeling fair because to your point, they haven’t heard the feedback. There haven’t been these conversations. Saw a guy. This been a long time ago. He was a big sales leader and a Fortune 50 company. And he’d had 20 years. Of sales growth in his division. He had one bad year. And he got fired. He had never been given the feedback on his behavior that he got the day he got fired. It was all a big shock and I mean, it was absolutely devastating. And I was invited to be at the meeting with his boss and the HR person, and I declined. Yeah, I. No, no, I said. It’s just not. 

Constance Dierickx

You know, I had been working with him for probably 5, six months. But he’d had 20 years of being. He was right. What have I said to me? Love this, he. We hire people for what they know and we fire them for who they are. 

Morag Barrett 

Oh, that’s completely reversed. And when I’m working with leaders and we’re talking about their performance review cycle, I keep saying it should be a performance review, not a performance review. Should no be no blind sides and even if. Should or could’ve given the feedback 20 years ago? At least give it now and give somebody the opportunity to choose to show up differently or not. Then let the letters part. But yeah, there’s so much to be done. It’s. We’ve designed the ally mindset profile, which. Underpins the five practices of being that friend at work. Ally. And in that research, 67% of the leaders who’ve completed we’ve had more than 1000 leaders from around the world take it say that their success has been undermined by the words or actions of a. Colleague, now think about that. 67% of people are saying no. My success has been impacted, which means that we are either being impacted or with the impact East. And when I then ask, well, where are your most troublesome relationships? They senior to. Are they junior to you? Are they external to your organization IE customers? Or are they your peers? Peers within your functional peers within your organization? It’s the. It’s those horizontal relationships that are the most fraught. And the third statistic I’ll share from it, 20% of those leaders who’ve taken the profile say that they have no friends at work, not just not one. So if you don’t have that ally, who do you go to when you’ve had a tough interaction or you’re feeling, I don’t know, how to proceed on this project or you know, I’m concerned this client is about to cancel their contract. And if you don’t have a friend. Work that you can go and confide in. You can guarantee that you don’t have the friend at work that’s going to give you the feedback you need to hear. Before it becomes a problem versus the feedback that you want to hear, which is, oh, you’re doing great. So that’s just three Nuggets that we’ve pulled from that data that just says that a the health of our professional relationships are not as strong as they need to be. Don’t leave it to chance. In. Apply the concepts from you, me, we, and and take ownership for it. And that it. It impacts our success because you said it earlier, we’re all the way to somebody in the company. So even if you’re not involved in the toxic relationship or the leadership style over there at some point when. Others are stopped gossiping about that. They’re going to say, why aren’t they fixing it? And you are part of the they so again. We have culpable negligence for our own immediate relationships and owning the culture of the organization. 

Constance Dierickx

Massively and I think about these as the decisions that we need to make that we don’t. Think not making important decisions is as damaging as making wrong decisions, and I see. Absolutely everywhere. So my brain is exploding right now with all the things to follow, things to follow up on. But I think it would be really fun. To talk about. Leaders that we’ve worked with that have really made a significant shift and change because one thing I believe strongly and if I didn’t believe this, I’d be in the wrong job for sure is that people are capable of great change. Sometimes people ask me, but you know, can people really. And I say people can change more than you think, but perhaps less than you hope. 

Morag Barrett

Yes. 

Constance Dierickx

Like, we don’t all become. We don’t become magically perfect. Learning and growth is a characteristic. Of good. So think about a leader that. That you’ve worked with that that has made the decision to improve their leadership in some way. What? What did they? What did they work? And and what did you observe them doing that turned out so well? 

Morag Barrett

So I don’t think there’s an answer. Did they work? Because it is different for everybody. 

I’ve got one leader that’s working on delegation, another one that’s better at communication. I’ve got 2 coaching clients that are currently working with the feedback of needs to be more strategic. Oh my goodness, do I want to go and shake their bosses? Mean like what does that? Mean, but here’s what I do know for myself and others that when it comes to making a change, it’s courage and vulnerability. Coud I make a decision to do or not do. It doesn’t matter really ’cause either. A valid choice, but do something and then let it go. If I choose not. To follow something I can’t complain about 3 weeks late, 3 weeks later that oh, I haven’t got this because I’ve chosen not to. Let it go. Or if I choose to do it and there was some research I was reading recently that shows that when people make a decision, even if it turns out that it wasn’t the right decision, six months later, they’re still happier. They have a new level of understanding.

And so that’s the irony. I think in the moment of making the decision, I know I can either procrastinate or circle looking for the perfect bit of data that’s going to confirm the right decision, but the reality is as soon as I just pick A,B or C, just pick. Because you can always course correct. And worst case, you just take a step back to where you were and again. Move down Plan B if Plan A didn’t work. Does that make sense? It’s courage and vulnerability to take the risk. 

Constance Dierickx

It does. And I think you, you mentioned perfectionism, I think perfectionism. Can be a way to protect our vulnerable side. You know, if I’m perfect. If I do this perfectly or even if it goes wrong, I can show people, you know, all the analysis I did and all the thinking and things like that. The truth is that. We make mistakes. And in Amy Sun’s work, her work at Harvard, about psychological safety is just brilliant. If you can’t point out errors, someone else’s or your own, and learn from them and improve systems. Then people will hide their mistakes and that’s her latest book about the wrong mistake is all about this. 

Morag Barrett

Yeah. 

Constance Dierickx

I think you’re right. The other day I was with someone and and they said, well, why doesn’t blah blah blah blah, you know. And I said, I said, what’s really underneath all this? And they said, yeah. And I said it’s fear. Yeah, it’s and fear is a powerful emotion, but I don’t think we have to just be immobilized by fear. Think we can say I’m afraid. Here’s what I’m afraid of. And then to your point and back to your work that you’ve done so much beautiful work on is you, if you reach out to colleagues. And you say. I’m afraid you know, we’re going to lose this client or I’m afraid. That this board is about to fire the CEO or, you know, whatever it, whatever it happens to be, I I work by myself. You have colleagues and even though I work alone in my company, I have people that I bring in to clients and I have a professional peer group. I’m telling you, without them I would be. I’d be sunk. I would have to sit in my office by myself and bite my nails when I was worried about something and I don’t have to do that. 

Morag Barrett

Yes, same here. 

Constance Dierickx

It’s so funny because sometimes not. It’s just true because these are such smart people that they will sometimes just say to me. I can’t believe he didn’t see this. I mean, they’re very candid with me. One of my friends who knows a lot of southern saying, she says. I have to come down there and jerk a knot in your hair. 

Morag Barrett

Oh. Yeah, as I’ve got long hair, I know what that feels like. Yes. 

But you know. 

Constance Dierickx

And I think a sense of humor can. So useful. For sure using but it all comes back to. 

You know, dealing with what we’re most afraid of by reaching out to colleagues and you cannot build a bridge right before you need to walk across it. No. Got to build it, and that’s what you write about and talk about and study. About 67% of people said their career was impacted by a peer. 

Morag Barrett

Yeah, and not in a good way. 

I mean, that’s that’s a heartbreaking. 

Constance Dierickx

I have experienced that and in fact, I left my former consulting firm. Because I got really sidelined by someone after working on a big project for a long time and I just thought this is not a place I want to be. And I don’t think any of my colleagues. But you know, if they do, they’ll be like, oh, who was? I know who was. But it was just an environment that where the competitiveness was healthy in some way, unhealthy in others, yeah. 

Morag Barrett

I want to say. I mean, that’s the thing about having friends at work. I think about Eric, Ruby and I and Jose here at Sky Team. We are competitive with each other, but it is in a healthy, how do we raise each other up? Yeah. In an unhealthy environment, it’s how do I get ahead of you? Do I win? And that that makes for a whole different environment. The same with the. Work. It’s the “I want to get money off the table.” Get to the fun. There’s going to be scope creep, but our goal is how do we make you more successful and not need us ideally? But how do we do this together? And I know when it I feel. It’s when I’ve let that fear take over that fear of well, if I send this e-mail, if I share this candid feedback, how’s that person going to react? React if I do this, what will happen next? And our brains are designed to create that infinite number of essentially negative outcomes. Go there 1st and we can become overwhelmed by that. Versus again, choose just do something, because then you’ll have the reality of did it land well? Did it land poorly? Did it partially solve? Either way, what are you going to do next? Like an ongoing chess game. But if we wait for the perfect move, the perfect time, the perfect opportunity, the perfect phrasing. We’re missing the opportunity to do something now and justice do our best. 

Constance Dierickx

And there’s very fascinating research on the psychological and physiological benefits of control. That, you know, we we use the phrase controlling is such a. Oh, you’re so controlling, you know. But I think having healthy control of our own decisions and our own experiences. I don’t think that I know that from the research. It’s incredible. And that’s related to what you’re saying about we get a sense of relief, you know, of making a decision. So oh, it doesn’t turn out so. I mean everything I’ve decided to do in my life has not turned out great. And I know from knowing you that you have a few examples of that as well, but it leads me to want to ask you what’s the best. 

Morag Barrett 

Oh yeah. 

Constance Dierickx

What’s the best business decision that you’ve made in your career? Or maybe there’s not only one. 

Morag Barrett

Those are. It’s a bit like me choosing between my three sons, which is my favorite, and I will choose between them at times when they’re in the room together based on who’s ever made the best dessert or whatever, because the best decision, I don’t know that any of. 

Constance Dierickx

Yeah, exactly. 

Morag Barrett

Were ever the best, they were the. I sees at the moment, in spite of the. Risk. And if I were to change any of them, I wouldn’t be sitting here talking. You right now. 

Constance Dierickx

Yeah. 

Morag Barrett 

But what have I taken from them is I could have been bolder and taken bigger, riskier decisions sooner. I mean like I am old enough to predate the Internet. And I remember sitting there in England and, you know, going onto the Internet each day and going well, there’s not much new here. Didn’t cross. Mind that I could start an Angie’s List or create my own thing and start pushing. I remember in my banking career when they were doing. They were doing various leadership programs to help women accelerate, and it was I could see that. Hang on. It’s not me because I’m smart enough and quick enough and I. Do this. I just have to wear a skirt because that was the dress code. Written in the policy, you know that sort of silly times. But it was all about fixing me versus fixing the system did not cross my mind that I could write a book about that in the 90s or the 2000s. Took me till the 2012 to realize. I have a voice and a message, an experience that is worth sharing. So I would go back and I would say to anybody listening to this, the decision that you’re wrestling with. Talk to your trusted ally, your friend at work in life doesn’t matter. Get some perspectives, but then choose and whatever you choose, I dare you to turn the dial up just one notch. Be bolder in what you ask. Be bolder in what you think you can. Run a little faster because I bet you’re going to surprise yourself. So move from that position of I can and I will learn along the way versus the fear base that you were touching on earlier, which is I can’t because I’m too new. I’ll get into trouble. Yeah, let people know I’m about to run off to the left. Following. Here’s where, right we’re going. Hurrah. Yeah, I’m getting a bit excited now. 

Constance Dierickx

Yeah. Yeah, no. I think it’s so interesting that. I I have to talk to so many people that say exactly what you said about, OK. Made a. To do this and it it was good. Mean imperfect? I learned along the way, but boy, I wish I had dialed. Up a notch. I wish I had. You know, been bolder when I left my consulting firm and started out on my own, I had certain goals that I’d set for myself. Know I’d. I had saved money. I was, you know, really prepared. I did twice as well as I thought I would do in the first two years, and I looked back on that and I was speaking to my mentor about this. Alan Weiss was my been my mentor for many years and he said well that just that just should tell you that your goals were too low. 

Morag Barrett

Yes. 

Exactly. I mean, I read his books when I first started Sky team, and I recommend them to everybody because. I wish I’d benefited from his mentorship sooner, being bolder in terms of the value I can bring to a client. 

Constance Dierickx

Yeah. 

Morag Barrett

Still learning the limits on that and it’s both the moving forward decisions that I think. We can struggle with because it’s the risk of the unknown and should I leave banking and go into American telecom. I leave the UK and move to the states. Should I leave corporate and start sky? I remember that conversation of let’s give it a year and see what happens. Now here we are, 18 years later. And very successful by any measures. And yet there are days where I still will say, am I really a successful entrepreneur and businesswoman? And thankfully I now have my team of allies who will get out the smelling salts and say you’re being hysterical, of course. And so we lose sight in the middle of our own overwhelm. Of the decision choices, the reality of. You’ve got this. Just pick and go. 

Constance Dierickx

Just pick and go. I think that’s a wonderful place to end to the listener. Make a decision. Get some advice, get some support. You know, when your friends tell you how great you are. Believe them. If those friends will also tell you you have spinach between your teeth, then when they tell you your stupendous and wonderful at this, that and the other believe them. Write it down. By the way, just a quick piece of advice. I tell everyone. Don’t try to write your own bio. Have someone who knows you professionally and who adores you? Write draft a bio for you, and when you read it, you should gasp. And that’s where you need to start, not with your own mealy mouth, you know. I went to college at, like, really no. And I found that I did that about 20 years ago, a friend wrote. My drafted my bio for me. And I didn’t want to believe it. And later I realized that that was. That was just a silly emotional reaction and I needed to just get over it, so I am glad Morg that you have grown in your boldness, your declarativeness. About what you do because you’re giving a great gift to everyone who listened to this episode. Thank you it. It’s just been so much. We can go on and on and on, but you know, we have to end some place. So thank you. 

Morag Barrett

It was a. As I said, a highlight for my day. Thank you. 

Constance Dierickx

Me too. 

Outro 

The Decision Doctor will be back with more advice soon. Hit the follow button on your favorite podcast app and check out TheDecisionDoctor.com to receive the Meta-Leadership self-assessment and other no-cost resources. We’ll see you next time.